[Cuis] Fwd: Patterns

[Juan Vuletich]

Hi Thierry,

On 11/17/2015 11:32 AM, Thierry Goubier wrote:
>
> 2015-11-17 15:00 GMT+01:00 Juan Vuletich <juan at jvuletich.org 
> <mailto:juan at jvuletich.org>>:
>
>     ...
>
>     The idea of view / model separation is pretty well explained in
>     "Inside Smalltalk Vol II" 1.3 to 1.3.4, pages 7 to 11.
>
>
> Sadly, that view / model separation encounters pragmatic issues  when 
> dealing with things more complex than standard widgets, such as your 
> typical domain drawing editor.

This is the first time I hear this. Can you elaborate or provide 
references? I worked on several mid-size to large projects that did 
strict view / model separation, and I never saw "pragmatic issues" (that 
couldn't be solved by a good design).

> This is the fundamental reason for me to consider that Morphic 
> departed from that model, and that the pinacle of that M / V 
> separation is the M2VC of VisualWorks.

PluggableMorphs attempted to follow this model (and give model 
compatibility between Morphic and MVC). Etoys (if I remember correctly) 
do the same, only that calling the model a "Player" and the view a 
"Costume". Later, people forgot about view / model separation, and 
Squeak became legacy software, in part because of that.

> Newer models in the literature around those years such as PAC proposed 
> better abstractions, but they were never implemented.
> Now, it's interesting to see you advocate that model on top of Morphic.
>
>
>     I agree that an Application object or such might make sense when
>     you are building an application, especially if you need to deal
>     with en external environment. But here we were talking about
>     whether the Model classes should know about Morphs or not.
>
>
> In theory, no.
>
> In practice, if you want a well tuned gui, I consider that yes, they 
> need to be aware of them.

Please elaborate, or provide references.

> So the most elegant way I've used is the two models: a pure, abstract 
> model, totally view independent. And a pragmatic, closer to the view / 
> aware of the view, application model as an mediator.
>
>
>
>                 I think it is better for the View to start it all.
>
>
>             +1
>
>
>         I prefer to model an Application concept in the target desktop
>         environment if I want to model highly portable stuff.
>
>         That application concern can be folded into a dedicated view
>         if that is the preferred convention in the target environment.
>
>         Regards,
>
>         Thierry
>
>
>     I wonder how would this result in practice. Do you have some
>     examples to share?
>
>
> I have a complex example, a system browser, would that fit?

Sure.

> Regards,
>
> Thierry
>

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
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