[Cuis] [Fwd: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..]
Germán Arduino
garduino at gmail.com
Wed Dec 26 05:14:42 CST 2012
Thanks by share.
About repositories I feel very comfortable working with GitHub and really I
can't saw any sense to the development effort of SmalltalkHub only to?
Being built in smalltalk? But paying the price of being isolated of all the
rest of the developers that are currently using GitHub....
Just an opinion.
Cheers.
2012/12/25 Juan Vuletich <juan at jvuletich.org>
> FYI...
>
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> From: - Tue Dec 25 22:24:04 2012
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> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 22:24:00 -0300
> From: Juan Vuletich <juan at jvuletich.org>
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> To: Ron Teitelbaum <ron at usmedrec.com>
> CC: 'The general-purpose Squeak developers list' <squeak-dev at lists.**
> squeakfoundation.org <squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>>, 'dimitris
> chloupis' <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>, stephane.ducasse at gmail.com
>
> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..
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>
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> Thanks for suggesting all this, Ron.
> (inline)
>
> Ron Teitelbaum wrote:
>
>>
>> I’m happy with the fragmentation. I wasn’t at the start of this
>> conversation but I think I’m starting to appreciate it. I agree that the
>> goals for each are a bit different and having separated achieving those
>> goals is easier. We are building some new stuff and it seems that selecting
>> the right fork for the right job “may” not have been possible without the
>> split. There are a number of new developments coming, (in the VM, Spoon,
>> Seaside, Cuis, EToys, …) and it’s possible that one big monolithic Squeak
>> may have made it more difficult for all. It seems that we are closer to
>> having split up the components then we had thought.
>>
>>
> I agree.
>
> I know we cannot make everyone happy. It seems that the starting point
>> which seems to me to be COG, is the common link that binds everything else.
>> Let me know if you think that is wrong. If that is true then building
>> Squeak, or Pharo, or Cuis from a single point seems like something that
>> might help bring the communities back together. Will Github or SmalltalkHub
>> help to accomplish this? If this were a goal would either do more than the
>> other?
>>
>>
> I believe that the option that allows for a minimal image that can grow is
> something close to the package support in Cuis, that is extremely compact,
> doesn't require Monticello and relies on Github (or similar) for version
> control. I like the idea of building each distribution from a single point.
> That single point could be not far from current Cuis. I believe that Cuis,
> removing Morphic, programming tools, and any other non-kernel image or Cuis
> specific stuff, could become that single point.
>
> If the people behind other Squeak distributions and Squeak derived
> projects want to go ahead with this, I volunteer for building that starting
> point by removing from Cuis any stuff that anybody doesn't want in there.
> Then, the Cuis distribution would be built by loading a set of packages on
> top of it. The same could be done for the projects that adhere to this
> idea. Some of those packages could be shared. For instance, for Cuis, I'd
> be more than happy to use the Compiler package that Eliot works on. But,
> most likely, I'd not use the same Morphic package as Squeak. This could
> reduce the effort due to code duplication.
>
> I agree with the goal, we want to be able to load a package and have it
>> work and it would be nice if the dependencies were limited/managed such so
>> that it will load in any fork. Not all packages will load in every fork so
>> knowing which will work beforehand is preferable. VW is different since
>> nobody expects that with some work it will run on Oinq, I mean Cog (my name
>> for the vm didn’t stick).
>>
>>
> Qwaq for the voice of the duck, and Oinq for the pig, right? :)
>
> It seems to me that it doesn’t really matter. There seems to be some
>> movement behind Metacello and SmalltalkHub. Sometimes movement is
>> preferable to good ideas. If Metacello works for Squeak and will work with
>> SmalltalkHub should we not include it in Squeak to give it a boost? If
>> Squeak goes with GitHub will Pharo follow?
>>
>>
> Cuis doesn't include Monticello. I believe that a more compact and simpler
> implementation of package support, together with Github for version
> control, repositories, etc. is better. We are already using this with Cuis,
> and the results are good. It would be quite improbable that I could be
> persuaded of pre-loading Monticello into Cuis.
>
> Nobody likes change but if we would all benefit from adopting some
>> similar tools should we not consider doing that for the benefit of the
>> entire Smalltalk community.
>>
>>
> Agreed. Especially if it helps making the system (Cuis in my case)
> simpler, easy to understand, and manage.
>
> Cheers,
> Juan Vuletich
>
> All the best,
>>
>> *Ron Teitelbaum*
>>
>> /Head Of Engineering/
>>
>> *3d Immersive Collaboration Consulting*
>>
>> ron at 3dicc.com <mailto:ron at 3dicc.com>
>>
>> Follow Me On Twitter: @RonTeitelbaum <https://twitter.com/**RonTeitelbaum<https://twitter.com/RonTeitelbaum>
>> >
>>
>> www.3dicc.com <http://www.3dicc.com/>
>>
>> 3d ICC on G+ <https://plus.google.com/u/0/**b/108936249366287171125/**
>> 108936249366287171125/posts<https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/108936249366287171125/108936249366287171125/posts>
>> >
>>
>> *From:* squeak-dev-bounces at lists.**squeakfoundation.org<squeak-dev-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org>[mailto:
>> squeak-dev-bounces@**lists.squeakfoundation.org<squeak-dev-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Juan Vuletich (mail lists)
>> *Sent:* Friday, December 21, 2012 3:47 PM
>> *To:* dimitris chloupis; The general-purpose Squeak developers list
>> *Subject:* Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..
>>
>>
>> Cuis is reasonably compatible with Squeak. It has a distinct set of
>> objectives, so some decisions are taken differently. Please see
>> http://www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/**Index.html<http://www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Index.html>.
>>
>> Maybe after some time with the various Smalltalk variants you get used to
>> that fragmentation, and believe there are reasons for it. Or maybe you can
>> help find the means to reduce that fragmentation.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Juan Vuletich
>>
>> Quoting dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk <mailto:
>> thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>>**:
>>
>> Thank you. I am definetly going to take a look at Cuis. How
>> compatible is Cuis to Squeak ?
>>
>> By the way I am already using Github for my first smalltalk
>> (pharo) project which I call "Ephestos", together with ss3 as a
>> backup plan.
>>
>> I dont do much with git , just the usual stuff, git push commit
>> pull rm add .
>>
>> I have to say, the smalltalk field is abit confusing to me as a
>> beginner, there is squeak , then there is pharo , then there is
>> Cuis, etc etc
>>
>> Its a pity there is so much fragmentation. I am sure for some
>> people this kind of freedome is cool and fun , but I personally
>> try find ways to make things work together.
>>
>> But I have loads of fun with pharo , and definitely my eye is on
>> Squeak too. I love smalltalk I wish I had discovered it earlier.
>> But better late than never I guess :D
>>
>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> ------------
>>
>> *From:* Juan Vuletich (mail lists) <juanlists at jvuletich.org
>> <mailto:juanlists at jvuletich.**org <juanlists at jvuletich.org>>>
>> *To:* dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk
>> <mailto:thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>>**; The general-purpose Squeak
>> developers list <squeak-dev at lists.**squeakfoundation.org<squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>> <mailto:squeak-dev at lists.**squeakfoundation.org<squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>> >>
>> *Sent:* Friday, 21 December 2012, 21:33
>> *Subject:* Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..
>>
>>
>> Hi Dimitris,
>>
>> With Cuis, we use Github as the main place for storing packages.
>> We use git as it is intended to be used. This means that we let
>> git handle file versioning. Besides, Cuis uses lf as the line
>> terminator. This means that git can diff and merge Cuis packages.
>> For example see
>>
>> https://github.com/pbella/**Cuis-Ports/commit/**
>> d2c70f95b6efee4f4d7671f432b4b3**04b5115c1d<https://github.com/pbella/Cuis-Ports/commit/d2c70f95b6efee4f4d7671f432b4b304b5115c1d>
>> .
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Juan Vuletich
>>
>> Quoting dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk
>> <mailto:thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>>**:
>>
>>
>> SqueakMap is dead, SqueakSource dead, later SmalltalkHub will
>> be dead.
>>
>> I am coming from pharo by the way, I am new with smalltalk, I
>> was a python developer.
>>
>> And I love squeak too.
>>
>> I dont understand why every smalltalk problem should be solved
>> by smalltalk.
>>
>> Github is a great community , already has gathered tons of
>> ruby and python projects, js and many more.
>>
>> I think its a great candidate for smalltalk, no offense
>> intended but definitely better that what SmalltalkHub can offer.
>>
>> I want to embrace at times all these smalltalk technologies,
>> but is hard to abandon Gihub that I have used for my projects
>> and support the smalltalk solutions instead.
>>
>> I dont want to downgrade the hard work of good people, but its
>> hard to compete with products that are designed full time by
>> big teams and matured through thousands of use cases.
>>
>> My vote goes to Github.
>>
>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> ------------
>>
>> *From:* Göran Krampe <goran at krampe.se <mailto:goran at krampe.se>>
>> *To:* The general-purpose Squeak developers list
>> <squeak-dev at lists.**squeakfoundation.org<squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>> <mailto:squeak-dev at lists.**squeakfoundation.org<squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>> >>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, 20 December 2012, 23:14
>> *Subject:* Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi folks!
>>
>> As the author of SqueakMap, long time Squeaker (and nowadays
>> both Squeaker and Pharooner) and also involved in some other
>> related projects (SmalltalkHub and more) my view might be of
>> some interest.
>>
>> First of all, Angel compares with the rest of the world - but
>> we have both historic and technical differences at play. Some
>> things worth noting:
>>
>> - SqueakMap was indeed started out as a generic package
>> *catalog*. It is not a SCM tool. It was format agnostic from
>> the very beginning.
>>
>> - Monticello and SqueakSource came from Avi. Superb tools but
>> when Squeaksource came I quickly warned the community that it
>> would deminish SqueakMap because it overlapped and "took over"
>> several "catalog" aspects. I was right unfortunately, but at
>> the same time SS was great and has served us very well in its
>> own right.
>>
>> - Noone has really taken SM and moved it forward. I also don't
>> have that amount of free time anymore.
>>
>> - SqueakMap is dead. Face it. :) It is not the future IMHO.
>>
>> - Monticello and Metacello are the de facto standard these
>> days for SCM and package loading. Metacello took the whole
>> dependencies/tagging/releases issue and simply rode on MC to
>> solve it. I have felt it looks overly complex but it's mostly
>> some line noise - it is not that complicated.
>>
>> - This also means that for a very, very long time package
>> management and source code management will be forever
>> "intertwined" in the Smalltalk world. Personally I say - fine!
>> Again, let's just embrace it and go.
>>
>> - The advantage is that Metacello "configurations" is "just
>> code" and can offer functionality totally independent of the
>> hosting platform for MC. So it doesn't matter if you load a
>> Metacello configuration from a website, from SS or SS3 or
>> Smalltalkhub - it all works the same!
>>
>> - Monticello AND Metacello are meant to work in Squeak too. I
>> haven't tried, but I presume Metacello works or is very close
>> to working?
>>
>> - Pharo is betting hard on Smalltalkhub. It is a really nice
>> system AND there is also an image side client tool brewing for
>> it! This means the equivalence of the SqueakMap Package Loader
>> will be easy to build in Squeak for Smalltalkhub.
>>
>>
>> So my advice would be:
>>
>> 1. Keep SqueakMap on oxygen for a little while longer while we
>> get ready to ditch it. Really.
>>
>> 2. Bet hard on Monticello (we already do, right?) and
>> Metacello for Squeak. Make sure they work. Embrace Metacello
>> even if it does look a bit complex to begin with. There are
>> lots of articles, tutorials and tons of examples to just copy
>> from. I have written two configurations these last two days
>> and "the shit works". Good work Dale! :)
>>
>> 3. Get involved in Smalltalkhub and help out making it work
>> fine for Squeak, note the name - *Smalltalk* hub. It's not
>> Pharohub! Don't set up your own unless for some odd reason
>> Pharo makes it uninhabitable for Squeak and turns it into
>> "Pharohub".
>>
>> Note that Smalltalkhub is "just" a new SS, but much more solid
>> architecture, really snazzy modern web UI, offering githubish
>> features and bloody hell, I mean, it can show diffs right
>> there in the browser!
>>
>> Smalltalkhub also has a really cool architecture so the coding
>> fun is rated A++, Nicolas is busy as a bee making it better,
>> better. I think it should be seen as a unifying playground and
>> Metacello as the "glue" that makes it possible to have
>> projects tailored for both Squeak and Pharo. It has many
>> functions for EXACTLY that.
>>
>> Either way, I am putting my efforts right there. IMHO the
>> Squeak community should do so too. If the Squeak community can
>> ride a bit on the momentum in Pharo - there is really no
>> reason not to.
>>
>> regards, Göran
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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--
============================================
Germán S. Arduino <gsa @ arsol.net> Twitter: garduino
Arduino Software http://www.arduinosoftware.com
PasswordsPro http://www.passwordspro.com
greensecure.blogspot.com germanarduino.blogspot.com
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