[Cuis] [Fwd: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..]
Angel Java Lopez
ajlopez2000 at gmail.com
Wed Dec 26 05:29:34 CST 2012
+100 GitHub
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@ajlopez
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On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 8:14 AM, Germán Arduino <garduino at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks by share.
>
> About repositories I feel very comfortable working with GitHub and really
> I can't saw any sense to the development effort of SmalltalkHub only to?
> Being built in smalltalk? But paying the price of being isolated of all the
> rest of the developers that are currently using GitHub....
>
> Just an opinion.
>
> Cheers.
>
>
>
> 2012/12/25 Juan Vuletich <juan at jvuletich.org>
>
>> FYI...
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> From: - Tue Dec 25 22:24:04 2012
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>> Message-ID: <50DA51B0.7000702 at jvuletich.**org<50DA51B0.7000702 at jvuletich.org>
>> >
>> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 22:24:00 -0300
>> From: Juan Vuletich <juan at jvuletich.org>
>> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228)
>> MIME-Version: 1.0
>> To: Ron Teitelbaum <ron at usmedrec.com>
>> CC: 'The general-purpose Squeak developers list' <squeak-dev at lists.**
>> squeakfoundation.org <squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>>, 'dimitris
>> chloupis' <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>, stephane.ducasse at gmail.com
>>
>> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..
>> References: <CAJbhyRFcERf5+2hxSU-Zj-**ikxGjt-e=NZs1XrKP5-apf7btcgQ@**
>> mail.gmail.com <NZs1XrKP5-apf7btcgQ at mail.gmail.com>> <
>> 1356020957646-4660342.post@**n4.nabble.com<1356020957646-4660342.post at n4.nabble.com>>
>> <1356024355.62450.**YahooMailNeo at web161303.mail.**bf1.yahoo.com<1356024355.62450.YahooMailNeo at web161303.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>>
>> <50D353AC.7050805 at gmail.com> <1356031420.31416.**
>> YahooMailNeo at web161305.mail.**bf1.yahoo.com<1356031420.31416.YahooMailNeo at web161305.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>>
>> <50D367AD.5060404 at gmail.com> <CAJbhyRFa8c=dSTO=YJ0-**KugZrRyCnAyUn0-E-**
>> ZXuffDbDgtsJw at mail.gmail.com<YJ0-KugZrRyCnAyUn0-E-ZXuffDbDgtsJw at mail.gmail.com>>
>> <1356033155.57936.**YahooMailNeo at web161304.mail.**bf1.yahoo.com<1356033155.57936.YahooMailNeo at web161304.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>>
>> <CAJbhyRGWZcO+**GeaYHqvigTtD91v6YmWwZ_g=c=N3Ap**8uf0+WoQ at mail.gmail.com<N3Ap8uf0%2BWoQ at mail.gmail.com>>
>> <042701cddef0$95988350$**c0c989f0$@usmedrec.com> <010201cddef3$03d23760$*
>> *0b76a620$@com> <50D37FBD.6050801 at krampe.se> <1356041703.74106.**
>> YahooMailNeo at web171205.mail.**ir2.yahoo.com<1356041703.74106.YahooMailNeo at web171205.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>>
>> <20121221163355.**11645q2qbeo05rc3 at gator167.**hostgator.com<20121221163355.11645q2qbeo05rc3 at gator167.hostgator.com>>
>> <1356120970.29755.**YahooMailNeo at web171203.mail.**ir2.yahoo.com<1356120970.29755.YahooMailNeo at web171203.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>>
>> <20121221174656.**97991hj4lfz0kjb4 at gator167.**hostgator.com<20121221174656.97991hj4lfz0kjb4 at gator167.hostgator.com>>
>> <005b01cddfc6$42dc1290$**c89437b0$@usmedrec.com>
>> In-Reply-To: <005b01cddfc6$42dc1290$**c89437b0$@usmedrec.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
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>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> Thanks for suggesting all this, Ron.
>> (inline)
>>
>> Ron Teitelbaum wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I’m happy with the fragmentation. I wasn’t at the start of this
>>> conversation but I think I’m starting to appreciate it. I agree that the
>>> goals for each are a bit different and having separated achieving those
>>> goals is easier. We are building some new stuff and it seems that selecting
>>> the right fork for the right job “may” not have been possible without the
>>> split. There are a number of new developments coming, (in the VM, Spoon,
>>> Seaside, Cuis, EToys, …) and it’s possible that one big monolithic Squeak
>>> may have made it more difficult for all. It seems that we are closer to
>>> having split up the components then we had thought.
>>>
>>>
>> I agree.
>>
>> I know we cannot make everyone happy. It seems that the starting point
>>> which seems to me to be COG, is the common link that binds everything else.
>>> Let me know if you think that is wrong. If that is true then building
>>> Squeak, or Pharo, or Cuis from a single point seems like something that
>>> might help bring the communities back together. Will Github or SmalltalkHub
>>> help to accomplish this? If this were a goal would either do more than the
>>> other?
>>>
>>>
>> I believe that the option that allows for a minimal image that can grow
>> is something close to the package support in Cuis, that is extremely
>> compact, doesn't require Monticello and relies on Github (or similar) for
>> version control. I like the idea of building each distribution from a
>> single point. That single point could be not far from current Cuis. I
>> believe that Cuis, removing Morphic, programming tools, and any other
>> non-kernel image or Cuis specific stuff, could become that single point.
>>
>> If the people behind other Squeak distributions and Squeak derived
>> projects want to go ahead with this, I volunteer for building that starting
>> point by removing from Cuis any stuff that anybody doesn't want in there.
>> Then, the Cuis distribution would be built by loading a set of packages on
>> top of it. The same could be done for the projects that adhere to this
>> idea. Some of those packages could be shared. For instance, for Cuis, I'd
>> be more than happy to use the Compiler package that Eliot works on. But,
>> most likely, I'd not use the same Morphic package as Squeak. This could
>> reduce the effort due to code duplication.
>>
>> I agree with the goal, we want to be able to load a package and have it
>>> work and it would be nice if the dependencies were limited/managed such so
>>> that it will load in any fork. Not all packages will load in every fork so
>>> knowing which will work beforehand is preferable. VW is different since
>>> nobody expects that with some work it will run on Oinq, I mean Cog (my name
>>> for the vm didn’t stick).
>>>
>>>
>> Qwaq for the voice of the duck, and Oinq for the pig, right? :)
>>
>> It seems to me that it doesn’t really matter. There seems to be some
>>> movement behind Metacello and SmalltalkHub. Sometimes movement is
>>> preferable to good ideas. If Metacello works for Squeak and will work with
>>> SmalltalkHub should we not include it in Squeak to give it a boost? If
>>> Squeak goes with GitHub will Pharo follow?
>>>
>>>
>> Cuis doesn't include Monticello. I believe that a more compact and
>> simpler implementation of package support, together with Github for version
>> control, repositories, etc. is better. We are already using this with Cuis,
>> and the results are good. It would be quite improbable that I could be
>> persuaded of pre-loading Monticello into Cuis.
>>
>> Nobody likes change but if we would all benefit from adopting some
>>> similar tools should we not consider doing that for the benefit of the
>>> entire Smalltalk community.
>>>
>>>
>> Agreed. Especially if it helps making the system (Cuis in my case)
>> simpler, easy to understand, and manage.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Juan Vuletich
>>
>> All the best,
>>>
>>> *Ron Teitelbaum*
>>>
>>> /Head Of Engineering/
>>>
>>> *3d Immersive Collaboration Consulting*
>>>
>>> ron at 3dicc.com <mailto:ron at 3dicc.com>
>>>
>>> Follow Me On Twitter: @RonTeitelbaum <https://twitter.com/**
>>> RonTeitelbaum <https://twitter.com/RonTeitelbaum>>
>>>
>>> www.3dicc.com <http://www.3dicc.com/>
>>>
>>> 3d ICC on G+ <https://plus.google.com/u/0/**b/108936249366287171125/**
>>> 108936249366287171125/posts<https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/108936249366287171125/108936249366287171125/posts>
>>> >
>>>
>>> *From:* squeak-dev-bounces at lists.**squeakfoundation.org<squeak-dev-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org>[mailto:
>>> squeak-dev-bounces@**lists.squeakfoundation.org<squeak-dev-bounces at lists.squeakfoundation.org>]
>>> *On Behalf Of *Juan Vuletich (mail lists)
>>> *Sent:* Friday, December 21, 2012 3:47 PM
>>> *To:* dimitris chloupis; The general-purpose Squeak developers list
>>> *Subject:* Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..
>>>
>>>
>>> Cuis is reasonably compatible with Squeak. It has a distinct set of
>>> objectives, so some decisions are taken differently. Please see
>>> http://www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/**Index.html<http://www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Index.html>.
>>>
>>> Maybe after some time with the various Smalltalk variants you get used
>>> to that fragmentation, and believe there are reasons for it. Or maybe you
>>> can help find the means to reduce that fragmentation.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Juan Vuletich
>>>
>>> Quoting dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk <mailto:
>>> thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>>**:
>>>
>>> Thank you. I am definetly going to take a look at Cuis. How
>>> compatible is Cuis to Squeak ?
>>>
>>> By the way I am already using Github for my first smalltalk
>>> (pharo) project which I call "Ephestos", together with ss3 as a
>>> backup plan.
>>>
>>> I dont do much with git , just the usual stuff, git push commit
>>> pull rm add .
>>>
>>> I have to say, the smalltalk field is abit confusing to me as a
>>> beginner, there is squeak , then there is pharo , then there is
>>> Cuis, etc etc
>>>
>>> Its a pity there is so much fragmentation. I am sure for some
>>> people this kind of freedome is cool and fun , but I personally
>>> try find ways to make things work together.
>>>
>>> But I have loads of fun with pharo , and definitely my eye is on
>>> Squeak too. I love smalltalk I wish I had discovered it earlier.
>>> But better late than never I guess :D
>>>
>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>>> ------------
>>>
>>> *From:* Juan Vuletich (mail lists) <juanlists at jvuletich.org
>>> <mailto:juanlists at jvuletich.**org <juanlists at jvuletich.org>>>
>>> *To:* dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk
>>> <mailto:thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>>**; The general-purpose Squeak
>>> developers list <squeak-dev at lists.**squeakfoundation.org<squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>>> <mailto:squeak-dev at lists.**squeakfoundation.org<squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>>> >>
>>> *Sent:* Friday, 21 December 2012, 21:33
>>> *Subject:* Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Dimitris,
>>>
>>> With Cuis, we use Github as the main place for storing packages.
>>> We use git as it is intended to be used. This means that we let
>>> git handle file versioning. Besides, Cuis uses lf as the line
>>> terminator. This means that git can diff and merge Cuis packages.
>>> For example see
>>>
>>> https://github.com/pbella/**Cuis-Ports/commit/**
>>> d2c70f95b6efee4f4d7671f432b4b3**04b5115c1d<https://github.com/pbella/Cuis-Ports/commit/d2c70f95b6efee4f4d7671f432b4b304b5115c1d>
>>> .
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Juan Vuletich
>>>
>>> Quoting dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk
>>> <mailto:thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>>**:
>>>
>>>
>>> SqueakMap is dead, SqueakSource dead, later SmalltalkHub will
>>> be dead.
>>>
>>> I am coming from pharo by the way, I am new with smalltalk, I
>>> was a python developer.
>>>
>>> And I love squeak too.
>>>
>>> I dont understand why every smalltalk problem should be solved
>>> by smalltalk.
>>>
>>> Github is a great community , already has gathered tons of
>>> ruby and python projects, js and many more.
>>>
>>> I think its a great candidate for smalltalk, no offense
>>> intended but definitely better that what SmalltalkHub can offer.
>>>
>>> I want to embrace at times all these smalltalk technologies,
>>> but is hard to abandon Gihub that I have used for my projects
>>> and support the smalltalk solutions instead.
>>>
>>> I dont want to downgrade the hard work of good people, but its
>>> hard to compete with products that are designed full time by
>>> big teams and matured through thousands of use cases.
>>>
>>> My vote goes to Github.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>>> ------------
>>>
>>> *From:* Göran Krampe <goran at krampe.se <mailto:goran at krampe.se>>
>>> *To:* The general-purpose Squeak developers list
>>> <squeak-dev at lists.**squeakfoundation.org<squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>>> <mailto:squeak-dev at lists.**squeakfoundation.org<squeak-dev at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>>> >>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, 20 December 2012, 23:14
>>> *Subject:* Re: [squeak-dev] Squeaksource, Squeak and Pharo..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi folks!
>>>
>>> As the author of SqueakMap, long time Squeaker (and nowadays
>>> both Squeaker and Pharooner) and also involved in some other
>>> related projects (SmalltalkHub and more) my view might be of
>>> some interest.
>>>
>>> First of all, Angel compares with the rest of the world - but
>>> we have both historic and technical differences at play. Some
>>> things worth noting:
>>>
>>> - SqueakMap was indeed started out as a generic package
>>> *catalog*. It is not a SCM tool. It was format agnostic from
>>> the very beginning.
>>>
>>> - Monticello and SqueakSource came from Avi. Superb tools but
>>> when Squeaksource came I quickly warned the community that it
>>> would deminish SqueakMap because it overlapped and "took over"
>>> several "catalog" aspects. I was right unfortunately, but at
>>> the same time SS was great and has served us very well in its
>>> own right.
>>>
>>> - Noone has really taken SM and moved it forward. I also don't
>>> have that amount of free time anymore.
>>>
>>> - SqueakMap is dead. Face it. :) It is not the future IMHO.
>>>
>>> - Monticello and Metacello are the de facto standard these
>>> days for SCM and package loading. Metacello took the whole
>>> dependencies/tagging/releases issue and simply rode on MC to
>>> solve it. I have felt it looks overly complex but it's mostly
>>> some line noise - it is not that complicated.
>>>
>>> - This also means that for a very, very long time package
>>> management and source code management will be forever
>>> "intertwined" in the Smalltalk world. Personally I say - fine!
>>> Again, let's just embrace it and go.
>>>
>>> - The advantage is that Metacello "configurations" is "just
>>> code" and can offer functionality totally independent of the
>>> hosting platform for MC. So it doesn't matter if you load a
>>> Metacello configuration from a website, from SS or SS3 or
>>> Smalltalkhub - it all works the same!
>>>
>>> - Monticello AND Metacello are meant to work in Squeak too. I
>>> haven't tried, but I presume Metacello works or is very close
>>> to working?
>>>
>>> - Pharo is betting hard on Smalltalkhub. It is a really nice
>>> system AND there is also an image side client tool brewing for
>>> it! This means the equivalence of the SqueakMap Package Loader
>>> will be easy to build in Squeak for Smalltalkhub.
>>>
>>>
>>> So my advice would be:
>>>
>>> 1. Keep SqueakMap on oxygen for a little while longer while we
>>> get ready to ditch it. Really.
>>>
>>> 2. Bet hard on Monticello (we already do, right?) and
>>> Metacello for Squeak. Make sure they work. Embrace Metacello
>>> even if it does look a bit complex to begin with. There are
>>> lots of articles, tutorials and tons of examples to just copy
>>> from. I have written two configurations these last two days
>>> and "the shit works". Good work Dale! :)
>>>
>>> 3. Get involved in Smalltalkhub and help out making it work
>>> fine for Squeak, note the name - *Smalltalk* hub. It's not
>>> Pharohub! Don't set up your own unless for some odd reason
>>> Pharo makes it uninhabitable for Squeak and turns it into
>>> "Pharohub".
>>>
>>> Note that Smalltalkhub is "just" a new SS, but much more solid
>>> architecture, really snazzy modern web UI, offering githubish
>>> features and bloody hell, I mean, it can show diffs right
>>> there in the browser!
>>>
>>> Smalltalkhub also has a really cool architecture so the coding
>>> fun is rated A++, Nicolas is busy as a bee making it better,
>>> better. I think it should be seen as a unifying playground and
>>> Metacello as the "glue" that makes it possible to have
>>> projects tailored for both Squeak and Pharo. It has many
>>> functions for EXACTLY that.
>>>
>>> Either way, I am putting my efforts right there. IMHO the
>>> Squeak community should do so too. If the Squeak community can
>>> ride a bit on the momentum in Pharo - there is really no
>>> reason not to.
>>>
>>> regards, Göran
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Cuis mailing list
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> ============================================
> Germán S. Arduino <gsa @ arsol.net> Twitter: garduino
> Arduino Software http://www.arduinosoftware.com
> PasswordsPro http://www.passwordspro.com
> greensecure.blogspot.com germanarduino.blogspot.com
> ============================================
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